newbie questions
Alex
via web
I got a twist for Christmas, and it is really my first foray
into espresso.
That said... I have been experimenting- and, well, it just doesn't
taste good.
Every shot I have made is bitter, with almost a fruity taste to
it.
At first I thought "well, maybe that's just what espresso tastes
like and my palate isn't sophisticated enough". But then I ordered
an espresso in a restaurant- and it was lovely.
So... what am I doing wrong?
I have tried pods from Illy... lavazza ground espresso in a can...
grinding my own beans (though my grinder is junky)....
And they all taste the same (bad).
Is it my tamping? My grinding? water temperature? Bean quality?
After having a 'good' cup in a restaurant- now I want to be able to make it myself! Or, should I just not expect that quality from a handheld machine?
Comments are currently closed for this discussion. You can start a new one.
Support Staff 2 Posted by Ayub on 21 Feb, 2010 02:27 AM
Hi Alex,
I apologize for the difficulty in getting a "good" shot of espresso. This could be due to various issues. The Mypressi TWIST is very capable of giving you the shot you are striving for. First things first are you pre-heating? If your shots are coming out bitter it might be due to temperature. Make sure you are using freshly boiled water and pre-heat. You can do this by heating the water bowl with boiling water for 30 seconds, dumping it out then putting water in to make your shot (repeat if you want to preheat further).
Another key is getting fresh beans and having a good grinder but if you do not have that make sure you use the coarse basket for Lavazza ground espresso in a can and if you are grinding your own beans with a "junky" grinder I would suggest using the coarse basket as well. Usually I use anywhere from 17 to 21g of coffee for a double. For pods you should not be getting bitter this seems like a temperature issue which preheating should fix.
Lastly tamping is important, make sure you are evenly distributing approx. 35 LBS of pressure (if you really want to measure do this on a scale). Tamping and distributing coffee unevenly in the basket will lead to your shot "blonding" effecting quality of your shot.
Take a look at this guide on Home-Barista: http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-guide-dose-distribute-tamp.html
If you still cannot achieve the shot you want feel free to give me a call @ (408) 772-3487, I would happy to discuss some techniques and go through what possibly could be going wrong. Also if you could explain your technique either here or via phone maybe we can see whats going on.
3 Posted by Alex on 21 Feb, 2010 04:04 PM
Thanks for the tips.
Yes, I have always prehreated, so I don't think that's it.
But I should use the coarse basket for Lavazza- espresso grind?!
I have tried the coarse basket with just regular ground coffee; it wasn't very good.
I'm out of the lavazza now anyway- do you recommend any regular commercial brand? Is Illy good?
And if i'm grinding my own beans- what beans should I have? I couldn't see spending $200 on a grinder I won't use often- so I found a cuisinart burr grinder that SAYS it can grind for espresso- but it's definitely not fine enough. I found a DIY article about putting in some shims- so now it seems to grind about as fine as that lavazza I had. But you're saying that's still 'coarse'? Wow.
And do pods make a single or a double shot? The box doesn't say...
And as far as tamping- that certainly may be it. I can't seem to measure it well on my bathroom scale, which is all I have. But, I use the tamper it came with, and mash on it with all my strength for a little while. I have no idea how many pounds that is- should it be REALLY hard??
I'll check out that guide in the meantime.
Thanks for the tips!
Support Staff 4 Posted by Stephen on 21 Feb, 2010 06:12 PM
Hi Alex,
It seems like the only problem is the grind. Coffee through the coarse basket doesn't taste as good as through the regular basket with a good grind, and you definitely sound like you are looking for the best possible experience. Tamping isn't actually all that important if you start with good coffee and a good grind. You can get away with as little as 10lbs of pressure, which doesn't require any strength. Just lean on the basket a little.
If the grind is sufficiently fine and you tamp with too much force the coffee will probably seize up and not run through at all.
The key diagnostic for grind is that the shot should pour in 25-30 seconds for a double-basket that has been filled at least to the line that runs across the middle of the basket. Many people actually overfill the basket. They will heap it up and then tamp down so it is within about 1/4 an inch of the top. If the shot pours too fast, there is either not enough coffee in the basket (which is a rare mistake) or the coffee is ground too coarse (which is much more common).
Illy is okay. You should be able to use their espresso grind in the standard basket.
Pods generally make single shots, although there are some doubles out there. I haven't had a pod ever that I liked and most are undrinkable. But that's just my opinion. I do try pods now and then but I am still waiting for an experience that amounts to even a semi-good shot.
Use the shot timing to diagnose further and let me know how you go. I may be a little late in responding as I am in El Salvador and may not have Internet access.
5 Posted by Alex on 22 Feb, 2010 11:07 PM
Ok, I don't think my shots have been taking that long, but next time I'll time it. I did notice the pods seem to take a lot longer- maybe that's more 'right' and I was too fast before. I did notice it flies right through the coarse basket, though.
One other quick question- when you say "filled at least to the line"- do you mean to the line after it's tamped, or before? I was using about 3 tablespoons (which I think is about 21g??), which heaped it over the top a little bit (before tamping) and it tamped down to about the line.
Support Staff 6 Posted by Stephen on 23 Feb, 2010 04:25 AM
Hi Alex,
It should be at least to the line after tamping. Sounds like you have the quantity right, but if it's still running through too fast you need a finer grind. It should feel a little like ground floor with some salt in there. In other words, it's very smooth to the touch with just a little coarseness. If it feels like sand, or all salt, it's too coarse.
Regarding the coarse basket, we don't offer too many guarantees. So much depends on the coffee. It's there if it's impossible to get a shot using the regular basket.
7 Posted by Budi on 25 Feb, 2010 07:29 AM
Hi Alex,
just to share my experience, the same thing also happen to me.
In my case the cause is the bean, it already stale.
I bought a local roasted coffe, but the problem it already store in shelf for a month.
Now I always buy directly to the roaster, not from their retail store.
I observe that you use Illy canned bean, I'm very certain that it is not the freshess bean, and the taste totally different.
Maybe you could ask the coffee shop you mention on your post to sell you a small amount of their bean.
8 Posted by Cindy on 26 Feb, 2010 12:23 AM
Alex: try ordering from some place like Peets. They roast and ship high-quality beans on the same day, so you get terrific freshness and flavor. Makes a BIG difference. I've experimented a lot with beans of varying origins, freshness, roast, grind, and brew method, and freshness is one of the most important factors. Also, use good filtered water and experiment with grind! (And no, I don't work for Peets--am just a new customer, really enjoying the taste of super good coffee.)
9 Posted by Alex on 28 Feb, 2010 09:09 PM
Thanks for all the suggestions.
I just did another 'taste test'- with no good results.
I'm starting to wonder if it's just me??
First- Filled the water bowl with hot (filtered) water, and put it aside to preheat.
*I use an electric kettle, so maybe it's not quite BOILING, but it's certainly HOT.
Then- pod basket + pod showerhead + Illy pod
Then emptied water basket, and filled it with hot water to the BOTTOM of the silver water marker (that's a single shot, right?)
New cartridge
Results- 20+ second shot- same bitter/fruity taste I always seem to get.
Next-
(supposedly) fresh 'espresso roast' beans, ground to "espresso" grind by the commercial grinder in the grocery store. (the only option finer was 'turkish')
Standard basket, standard showerhead
3 tablespoons coffee, which heaped over the top.
I leveled it off with my finger.
Tamped it with all my strength. Granted I am a girl and not some huge jock, but still- I put some muscle into it.
Fresh hot water to the MIDDLE of the silver marker (that's a double, right?)
Results- not even a five second shot.
Repeated the above, but took off the spout (is that 'naked portafilter'?) just to watch- looked OK to me- all the coffee came out of one stream in the center, with a LITTLE bit of crema at the end. But still- 5 seconds or so.
Tried again, but this time used the same coffee, but with the 'coarse' basket, figuring that might help it go through slower.
That gave me about a 10 second shot.
Still the same bitter taste.
(tried again without the spout- whoops! what a mess! haha)
Next- tried with a fresh can of Illy ground espresso from the store.
(FWIW, the ground felt about as finely ground to me as the previous stuff.) Again- 3 tbsp (a heaping basket)- tamped hard (down to about the line after tamping)
That gave me maybe a 7 second shot.
Same (bad) taste.
Finally- illy coffee + std showerhead + coarse basket-
Interestingly- this one didn't even go through. I held the trigger for a good 30 seconds, and not one drop came out. But when I let go, the trigger was almost stuck? It was a new cartridge, so I know that's not the problem. I feel like it's all pressurized, but can't get the water through, so I'm a little nervous to open it up.
(so I'm writing this while it's in a bit of a 'time out'.)
I'm really not sure what else I can do...
Yes, I could go to some specialty coffee store and watch them roast the beans in front of me- then I would know they are super-fresh.
And I could buy a $300 grinder so I know they are fine enough.
But short of that?
Shouldn't this be reasonably accessible to the 'average joe'? So that coffee you buy in the store is maybe not ideal, but at least adequte?
10 Posted by Budi on 01 Mar, 2010 03:31 AM
Hi Alex,
If right now you could not afford $300 plus electric grinder , you could try any good manual hand grinder. I use Kyocera ceramic hand grinder when I'm travelling.
You can get it from orphanespresso.com, they also have some other type of manual grinder.
BTW you don't have to eye-balled the roaster to get fresh coffee bean :-)
Just ask for roast date under one week, it sould good enough.
Don't give up yet. Some of us could jump straight up because we have throw a ton of coffee I think. Usually with bigger expensive machine, so with mypressi is a piece of cake :-D
11 Posted by Budi on 03 Mar, 2010 09:01 AM
Hi Alex,
it just come to me, do you ever seeing Tim Owen video ?
at http://www.sweetmarias.com/weblog/?p=353
or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npUErC5z9p4
maybe it could help you on the tasting side.
Good luck
12 Posted by Cindy Nichols on 03 Mar, 2010 04:49 PM
Alex, I really sympathize. I've had very similar experiences with other consumer products, and have nearly lost my mind on an occasion or two. One thing you might keep in mind: "pulling the perfect shot" is an art, sometimes hit or miss, and coffee shop espresso is sometimes very imperfect too. When I make shots at home with my Twist, Bialetti Brikka, Bialetti Mukka Express, microwave espresso machine, and Cuisinox moka pot, the results vary. A little bitterness is sometimes nice, and, though I aim for sweetness, I sometimes get only a little. "Fruity" is usually considered very nice in an espresso, but "sour" is (for me, anyway), VERY undesirable. I've learned how to get rid of sour through grind, degree of heat, type of coffee, etc. By the way: I tried my first can of Illy recently and guess what: it was SOUR as hell! It's now sitting in the back of my cupboard getting stale while I use other stuff. I have nothing against Illy--just haven't been able to make a good Americano with their medium roast espresso yet.
Anyway. Sorry to babble.
13 Posted by Alex on 04 Mar, 2010 01:47 AM
No, you're not babbling- thanks.
And I don't mean to sound like I'm bashing the twist- because I absolutely believe people are getting good results.
I just think either I don't know what espresso is SUPPOSED to taste like (entirely possible)- or I'm doing something wrong.
I'm curious to see if Stephen et al have any further thoughts when they get a chance to weigh in.
Thanks everyone!
Support Staff 14 Posted by Stephen on 04 Mar, 2010 02:23 AM
Alex, obviously I can't resist an open invitation to weigh in. :)
When I've had to do a demonstration in a place where I don't have access to a good grinder I look for the best cafe I can find and I ask the barista to dose the TWIST's basket and give me some hot water for the price of a standard shot. They would then look on in amazement as I proceeded to pull a shot. Sometimes we would do side-by-side tastes with their regular machine using the same grind. It can be very difficult to tell the difference.
Anyway, I am digressing. I was thinking that might be a way for you to get another opinion. Find a great cafe and see if they can help.
We've also had customers come direct to our office (which is not any help unless you are in San Jose, CA) where we provide free tutorials. I recall someone who was not getting the sort of shot she was thinking possible, but she was using a generic off-the-shelf blend and grind. It got to the point she considered her machine faulty so she came to the office to replace it. I pulled her a shot here using her TWIST with some beans from an artisinal roaster using a $450 grinder and it was a revelation for her. It was just superb. Needless to say she went away vowing to buy a good grinder and better beans. Sometimes the grinders used by chains are not kept sharp enough to keep producing a good espresso grind, so they unfortunately cannot always be relied upon. The espresso setting on the grinder will not, unfortunately, make a good espresso grind forever.
Hand grinders can be good (I've used a Hario Skerton), but you will need to wind the handle about 150-200 times to produce sufficient fine grinds for a shot.
We are in the process of testing an improved pressurized (or "coarse") basket that also make a much better shot with poorer quality grinds. In fact, it makes the best tasting shot I've had from any machine with a pressurized portafilter. However I cannot give you a date for its availability. I just wanted to let you know we are working on that problem to help someone without a good grinder.
The reason shots taste "fruity" (and I think you mean that in a bad way, not in a good "fruity" way like Klatch's Belle Espresso for example), is that poor grinders produce a wide range of grain sizes which leads to channeling, allowing water to come through at high pressure in some areas, diluting the extraction, causing sourness, low body, and a range of other unwanted characteristics. A really great grind has a regular series of grain sizes. They are not all the same--some fill in the gaps between others--but they are regular enough that the water has to push through all parts of the basket simultaneously.
So I recommend doing any of the following for a better shot:
1. Take the TWIST to a really good cafe, someplace known for great espresso, and see if you can pull some shots together
2. Get a good quality hand grinder and be prepared for serious work
3. Find a good quality ex commercial grinder whose burrs can be sharpened or a good quality home grinder. Expect to pay at least $300 for the home grinder. Baratza will be releasing an updated Virtuoso that should work much better quite soon. It will be around $300 and represents an excellent option for a first grinder.
Of course, it does seem a little ironic that the grinder should cost several times more than the espresso machine. It used to be the reverse.
I hope that helps, although I don't have an ideal answer for you. If you do have the opportunity to try some shots at a cafe, please let us know how you go.
Best regards,
Stephen
15 Posted by Budi on 04 Mar, 2010 10:09 AM
Hi guys,
just one additional input about the hand grinder.
The Hario Skerton is not good enough to grind for espresso, the Hario Slim does the job better. For more follow this link http://www.home-barista.com/advice/hario-skerton-skelton-vs-hario-s...
Support Staff 16 Posted by Stephen on 04 Mar, 2010 12:24 PM
Interesting link Budi. My inference from the discussion is that the Skerton can be set to grind too fine ("it can choke the mypressi"). This just means it is capable of grinding even finer than required, which is a good point, and it can then be pulled back to a coarser grind to optimize the results. I have a Slim also, but found the Skerton due to its wider base was easier to handle. However I haven't tried a side-by-side taste test of the results.
By the way, for optimal results while traveling I have heard people suggest hooking these up to a battery-powered drill. That's a mod I'm yet to try out.
17 Posted by Cindy Nichols on 04 Mar, 2010 01:46 PM
I'm still kind of newbie and am using a Capresso Infinity Burr grinder for $99. It seems to be working very well. 'Course, I've never done a side by side...
18 Posted by Budi on 05 Mar, 2010 02:32 AM
Hi guys,
about the Hario Skerton vs Hario Slim, the difference more on the taste I think.
Both surely can choke any espresso machine, but the Slim gives more consistent grind compare to Skerton. When using Skerton I should expecting more variation on the grinds, more fine/powder particles . So the taste more on the bitter side.
The minus for the Slim, have to crank it more than the Skerton due to its size. :-)
Support Staff 19 Posted by Stephen on 05 Mar, 2010 07:07 PM
Budi, thanks for the update. More fines definitely can be a problem. It would be interesting to do side-by-sides with all the various hand grinders, and also comment on how easily they can be modified to hook up to a portable electric drill. Some day when there's time perhaps...
Stephen resolved this discussion on 12 Mar, 2010 10:28 PM.